Wendy Hilliard (00:00:06) – It’s such a blessing that they find something that they really want to get behind, and it’s going to keep them healthy and it’s going to keep them motivated and determined. But the support is, is critical. It’s always been a blessing. They always come back and tell me they’re so glad that they participated in this. Being part of a group or a team is a very important part of development of child development. That’s what we’re doing. That’s what gymnastics is.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:00:36) – Welcome to the Black Gymnast Olympic Dreams edition of the Resilience to Brilliance podcast, where you’ll be inspired by the history and eye-opening accounts from Olympians who lived the dream. I’m your host, Kim Hamilton Anthony.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:00:49) – Here we go.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:00:53) – The Black Gymnast Olympic Dreams edition of the Resilience to Brilliance podcast is a series dedicated to young Black gymnasts and their families out there who have the Olympic dream. My goal is to provide encouragement and advice to these young athletes and their families on how to navigate this world of gymnastics, while embracing the skin they’re in. We’ll learn a bit about history of Black gymnasts, and we’ll also hear from Black gymnasts who will share their stories of resilience, and what it took to achieve their own Olympic dream. On this episode, Wendy Hilliard.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:01:23) – Wendy Hilliard has been a major influencer in Women’s, Olympic and community sports, a record-setting nine-time U.S. Rhythmic gymnastics national team member. She actually competed in three World Championships and the 1984 Olympic Trials. She is the founder of Wendy Hilliard Gymnastics Foundation, where she is making gymnastics accessible to under-resourced communities. She has provided free gymnastics to over 25,000, I said 25,000 disadvantaged children, Wendy and I had this joyful and informative conversation about her story, the history of Black gymnasts, and she also gave some excellent advice for athletes and parents who are on their own gymnastics journey. Let’s listen.
Wendy Hilliard (00:02:28) – Hey, Wendy. Welcome to Resilience to Brilliance.Thank you very much Kim. So happy to be here.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:02:30) – It is great to have you here. I appreciate you taking time out of your day. You got a lot going on, Wendy, and it’s a wonderful thing. All good things. So one of the reasons I wanted to have you on, is because I see you as a key historian when it comes to knowing the history of Black gymnastics.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:02:51) – It seems like every time I go to your website, every time I visit one of your social media pages, I’m learning something new. So I want to talk history with you. But I don’t want to overlook the fact that you are history. You made history by becoming the first Rhythmic Gymnast to represent the United States globally. And then you also competed in Olympic trials in 1984. So I want to start out with your competition years. What was it like for you competing as a Black gymnast during the 80s?
Wendy Hilliard (00:03:22) – Yeah, it’s so funny. It sounds like so long ago.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:03:24) – I know. Well, it’s like 40 years ago.
Wendy Hilliard (00:03:28) – I know. It is.
Wendy Hilliard (00:03:30) – Well, you know, it’s so funny because it doesn’t feel like it’s so long ago, but it was it was a different time. So, there are so many things going on. It was a combination of I started out as an Artistic Gymnast, so everyone that was in rhythmic gymnastics during my time, we were like the first crew of Rhythmic Gymnasts.
Wendy Hilliard (00:03:49) – We were all artistic gymnasts, so they recruited us from Artistic Gymnastics. So like if I was with my teammates, we would go do round of back handspring layout, but we could just do all the stuff, but then we could pick up our hoop and throw it around too. So we were all gymnasts already. And then my, my, I started because in Detroit they hired these four coaches from the Ukraine, from Kiev, actually former Soviet Union to work in the recreation department. So, you know, it happens that my coach, we argued about ths. She, she passed away in 2008. But we argued. She said, I begged her to teach her Rhythmic Gymnastics, and I said I didn’t know anything about Rhythmic Gymnastics. So no, you taught me. So there was a ribbon in the gym, and I picked it up and I started Rhythmic Gymnastics because she was a master sport. She was my guiding star in the sport. And she is just, you know, so us at the time, it was a very new sport.
Wendy Hilliard (00:04:42) – I mean, nobody knew anything about it. and so it was a growing sport and, you know, it was a challenge. But I have to say, as being the first Black on the national team, but my team wasn’t, you know, I was the only Black on my team. I was from Detroit. So my teammates, it was a very diverse team. Half my team or three-quarters of my team was Black. We’re all live in the city. And then we became so good that girls from the suburbs started coming to Detroit, really to be on our team.
Kim Hamilton Anthony – So yeah, that’s interesting.
Wendy Hilliard – It was a very so for me, even though it was challenging. Seriously. I mean, oftentimes at nationals or most times when I went to like around the world, I’d be like you only I felt I was the only Black woman female in the country, but at home on a regular basis. We had a very diverse group of people, and I think it really grounded me. I was in Detroit.
Wendy Hilliard (00:05:30) – Detroit’s a chocolate city, as they call it. So, everybody around me, my church, my school, you know, so it was I think it was really helpful for me that I had that as my, you know, day-to-day and my gymnastics, even my gymnastics, because I was practicing all the time. But when I went internationally, I went nationally, it was a different thing. So it was a challenge. I had definitely challenges where they’re like, what are we going to do with this? Black girl on the national team wants to do gymnastics. And the thing is, I was talking to someone about this recently, and what happened is, oftentimes I would be really, you know, I would make the national team and do well. But when I went to Europe, I always got higher scores.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:06:10) – Really? Why do you think that happened?
Wendy Hilliard (00:06:13) – Well, I have to. I credit Zina and her sister Rosa. They let me be me. You know, I wasn’t a typical Rhythmic Gymnast.
Wendy Hilliard (00:06:20) – I wasn’t really skinny and blonde, and, you know, I wasn’t. So I used what I had, which was really hard tricks, really great music. You know, I’m from Detroit, Motown. And at first all my routines were classical music. Khachaturian and Russian, Russian music and things like that. But then she said, “Well, Wendy, why don’t we just use what’s here?” I mean, she was a huge fan of France. She wanted to see and wanted to use a print song. One time I think it was Little Nicky. It was so dirty, but her English was so bad that she didn’t get it, so.funny.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:06:54) – Oh my goodness.
Wendy Hilliard (00:06:55) – So anyway, I had this great music. Zina was a great choreographer and she was very good at, you know, just being who you were. So when I go to Europe, they just thought it was the coolest thing ever. This Black gymnast with all this Motown music and la la la and and in the US, it was hard because they were trying so much to look European.
Wendy Hilliard (00:07:14) – And I didn’t look didn’t look at European. Saved my anything. Not happening. Right. Not happening. So it was part of it is because we were new and we were trying to look like the best in the world… Well, which were the Bulgarians and the Russians, you know what I’m saying? But all of our coaches were basically from Eastern Europe. So it was a challenge. But it was it was eye-opening and it was exciting because I got to travel all around the world. I have really good friends from that time. it’s pretty funny. I have some of my really great memories with the Cuban gymnasts, because they were the only other Black gymnasts in Rhythmic Gymnastics. So we go to World Championship. It’d be me and, like, 5 or 6 Cubans.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:07:53) – Okay.
Wendy Hilliard (00:07:56) – You know, the after parties, they would have the little banquets after the thing. We’d be dancing together. They. Come on, come on. And they also spoke Russian. So I learned to speak Russian because my my coaches did.
Wendy Hilliard (00:08:06) – So it was challenging, no doubt. But I think it’s because I just love doing gymnastics so much and I love promoting my sport. And it was a gift to me. I mean, I just had these really great coaches. I mean, let’s be clear, they could have gone anywhere in the United States, but they came to Detroit. I gotta thank my mother for that. But, you know, they were they were. Our environment was really, it was hard, but it was also loving and it was innovative. And so I have no complaints from that standpoint. Now, there are a couple of incidents that I could have done without, but, you know.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:08:43) – Now, one of the things that I heard you talk about was how, when it came down to making the World Championship team. At some point you were told that you couldn’t make the team because you.. I guess you didn’t blend in. You didn’t look that look. And you mentioned a little bit earlier you weren’t blonde. You weren’t like stick thin like most gymnasts were at that time.
Wendy Hilliard (00:09:14) – So it was, for the World Championships for 1983. And so in Rhythmic Gymnastics you have individual gymnastics and group gymnastics. And so we were competing in the group aspect, and I had already done the group. I had been in two World Championships by this time. but what they do is you go to the Olympic Training Center, we went to Colorado Springs and they sent about 13 or 14 girls, and they divide you in two groups. So everybody knows there’s like a, A group and a B group. So all the hard choreography, everybody knows everybody is in a group is like most likely going to go and they’re doing their thing. And so I was in the A group. And then afterwards, you know they bring everybody together in a room like this is the decision who’s going to go to a World Championships. Well they read off everybody’s name except mine. And it was, it was so hard. First, all the other teammates there, because we’re all friends now. You know, we’ve been training together and traveling together. They were shocked like, oh my god Mindy sending a team. You’re looking at me. I’m looking at my coach and everybody’s doing it. So I went up to the coach who was selection coach for the national team, and I said, “How come I wasn’t chosen?” She says, “Oh, Wendy, you stand out too much.”
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:10:20) – Ohhhh.
Wendy Hilliard (00:10:21) – Like, I was like, what am I going to do with that? I says, really, I was just I was shocked, but I was really hurt because, you know, everybody’s training. Yes. But, you know, I called, I called my parents, as you do. I called him on the phone…”oh dad come and pick me up”.. And but they’re like, “okay, baby, okay, baby, we’re going to fight this”. And they sure did call USA Gymnastics. They’re like, after everything. After everything my parents have been through. Come on.
Wendy Hilliard (00:10:43) – My parents were in Detroit. They went through their African American educated people. You know, they had just gone through it. And so they were just having none of it because I was shocked that they could say something like this at that time. But USA Gymnastics, it was your USGF at the time, right? The United States Gymnastics Federation, they changed it. They said we’re not going to allow this decision to go. You have to go by the rank order from the National Championships. And so I was in the top six and I went and it was hard because it was the year before Olympic trials. So, you know, if you have the selection committee and you’re giving them trouble, it’s not gonna look good next year. But, you know, it was that. But then the other thing was when we went to the World Championships, the Cuban team, I told you the only one that had Black gymnasts, had five
Black gymnasts and one white gymnast on their team. It’s just the opposite of what we had. Right.
Wendy Hilliard (00:11:33) -. And so it’s part of partly education. But it taught me at the time that I was going to have to have more of a burden on me than just to do my gymnastics. I’m going to have to speak out. I’d have to become an advocate and, you know, do what I have to do, so that I could compete.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:11:52) – Thank you for speaking out, because my hope is that not only did it affect Rhythmic Gymnastics, but it affected Artistic Gymnastics as well. From your perspective as a pioneer, what are some things that you and other Black gymnasts back in the day, back during those years when you were competing? What are some of the things in addition to what you just shared, that they and you had to go through? But today’s Black gymnast no longer has to go through because of the path that has been paved along the way.
Wendy Hilliard (00:12:26) – Yeah, that’s a really interesting question. So some things are different and some things are not so different, which is yikes. You know what I’m saying.
Wendy Hilliard (00:12:35) – So what’s different is that we were so far and few between. Right. You know, if you were a top gymnast on a national team, there was another Blacks in place. You knew who they were. They were like, so we all, we all knew each other. And in one way, that kind of bond, and it didn’t matter what kind of gymnastics it was like, you know, Diane Durham and Artistic Gymnastics and Corinne, you know, Tarver and Artistic and the guys. That was funny. I just saw Mario and Cluxton a couple of weeks ago. Ron Gallagher, it’s like if you’re a top Black athlete in gymnastics, we all knew who we were. And so that was kind of fun. But we were all separate, you know, by ourselves. I mean, it was it was tough because we had a different, it was hard because for me, I told you, like, I had Detroit to grow up into, sometimes gymnasts had to really move from their whole, like like their family or their city to go train in an all white environment or primarily white environment.
Wendy Hilliard (00:13:30) – And that’s difficult. I don’t think people get it. But it’s interesting that you have there’s a skill that people know if you’re Black in America and you’re in, in spaces that are not always diverse, that how you manage, how you have to manage. And so the one thing is, is that as an athlete, and this is interesting because most athletes look at you as another athlete. That’s that was never a problem. It wasn’t my other athlete friends that I had a problem with, the judges and the officials like, like that was the issue. And so the difference I think now is that, well, you got social media, so you can put your story out there instead of relying on other people to put your story out. But also they’re more and they’re more on the elite level, no doubt. And that makes a big difference. It just, it just does. You know, when you talk about what Simone did and asking Jordan to come over to help, I mean, the power that she has, which is the most fun things.
Wendy Hilliard (00:14:20) – I went, I went to Simone Biles gym, about a year ago, right, in January. And so it was the coolest thing ever to see such a group of high, high level. Because Simone’s in the group, right? I mean, yes, the highest level training together. I mean, Kim, you would never have this, like, be in a gym with the top gymnasts that were on, like, the National team and compete internationally and have 6 or 7 in one group now, you know, now that’s the thing. And so that’s got to feel super great. Because I tell people though, it’s great on the high level in some areas, but in the grassroots, because gymnastics is still very inaccessible and expensive. You don’t see as many as a group. So that’s why I have my foundation. But I would say for athletes now, you get inaudible you can be with more people on your level, which is really lovely. Y’all could do each other’s hair if you need to.
Wendy Hilliard (00:15:12) – You know, I’m like, we didn’t have that.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:15:13) – No. Yeah.
Wendy Hilliard (00:15:16) – Yeah. How’s your leotard going to stay down? You know the stories. You know, it’s. And, you know, during our time, the manufacturer was Asics. It was Japanese manufacturer that was doing the National Team, and they had no room in the leotard for nobody’s butt. But up in there, I was like, come on, sorry, this is the truth, but you got to deal with this. Yes. No, I’m just saying it was there little things that people don’t think about in gymnastics that you had that are specific to cultural culture? Right. And if you’re by yourself and you’re in the middle of some other country someplace else, it can be very challenging. But, having a sisterhood and having other people understand your journey makes a big difference.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:16:03) – Now, this topic is really near and dear to your heart that you have even advocated for the sport at the government level. Tell me about that experience.
Wendy Hilliard (00:16:13) – Wow. Well, you know, it’s interesting. So we got a call last year. There’s, Amelia Sykes, who’s a congresswoman out of Ohio, and she was a gymnast. And so she had us speak at the Congressional Black Caucus about Black females in gymnastics. It was me. Karen was invited, who was the coach over at Rutgers? Morgan from Fisk was there. And, and also Louise, who’s on the board of *inaudible*, who’s on the board of USA Gymnastics. It was really wonderful because, for one, the congresswoman, you know, she was passionate about gymnastics. She said, I, I was like a level nine, I loved it. She had her whole like, what, she did a YouTube channel introducing yourself as like in a gymnastics gym. So she said it shaped me. It shaped me as a woman and as an advocate. And that’s true. Let me tell you, if you heard me practicing gymnastics on a high level for a long time, you’re going to be disciplined. You’re going to be resilient, you’re going to be a lot of things.
Wendy Hilliard (00:17:10) – And so this is what she did. And she said that she saw the rise of the gymnasts. So we got to to tell our stories on Congress and the Congressional Black Caucus. but I’ve kind of started from the 80s to be an advocate because, they just started giving athletes voice. So they have a athletes council that was just developed for USA Gymnastics in the 80s. And so I was on that and my teammates voted on me. Like, Wendy knows how to stick up for herself. So we want her to be our representative. So it kind of started from there. And then I went to the Women’s Sports Foundation. So becoming an advocate, started because of the challenges I had, but it also just kind of turned into something that I wanted to do and that all athletes really need to have. Athletes need to have voices, as we well know.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:17:57) – Yes we do. In 1996, you founded the Wendy Hilliard Gymnastics Foundation. You mentioned that a little bit earlier. What made you start the foundation and what is it that you offer the community?
Wendy Hilliard (00:18:11) – Well, I started the foundation because I became a coach. .My gymnast, Aliane Baquerot-Wilson married Blaine Wilson,and was in the 96 Olympics. And so after she went, she went for group. I decided enough of the high-level elite. It was still the sport was not very diverse by this time. It was so expensive. Her mother used to say, “Wendy his is such an elitist sport. You know, I just paying so much money to do it” I was like, you got a point there. And so I really wanted to go back to grassroots because for one, you know, being on the elite level and then training an elite athlete means you’re spending a lot of time in the gym. It just oh, and so I was kind of over that. And also I just finished my tenure as president of the Women’s Sports Foundation. So I really understood a lot more about fundraising. And one of my, my board members, you know, the Olympic Committee at the time is now the APC, but the Olympic Committee had a grant for emerging sports.
Wendy Hilliard (00:19:04) – So I’m a writer. I went to school, I learned how to write. I wrote this grant for Rhythmic Gymnastics and they gave it to me. And so, to be honest with you, I wish I could say we had this big grand plan. We did not. I just jumped into it, but it was based on my my, career as a gymnast that I was able to do gymnastics with really good coaching, and it didn’t cost me a lot in a community, in an urban community. And that’s really what we do. We provide free and low cost gymnastics for kids. We’re in Detroit, we’re in Harlem. The kids can walk to the gymnastics gym. If they can’t afford it, we give them scholarships. I raise a lot of money because gymnastics, as much as I love the sport, has not gotten any cheaper. But by far. But outside of that. but the thing is, is that what’s really wonderful is the kids, especially now we have all these top athletes that are inspiring these young kids.
Wendy Hilliard (00:19:57) – Like, we didn’t have any that we couldn’t turn on the TV and see anybody look like us for like what, 20 years?
Kim Hamilton Anthony – It took a while.
Wendy Hilliard – it took a minute. And so they have people to inspire them. And so it’s a really joy in the gym, that they come in and they just get access to do gymnastics. And if they have the talent and determination and drive to take it to the next level, we support them all the way, tohow however high they can compete. And we’ve had National Team members and we do now, two of them.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:20:27) – Congratulations.
Wendy Hilliard (00:20:29) – Thank you.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:20:30) – That’s amazing. Now, I love what you’re doing with the foundation and the fact that you’re making gymnastics more accessible to under-resourced communities. There’s a lot of talent out there, Wendy. I remember flipping around on the sidewalks, and a lot of other kids could flip around on the sidewalks like me. But I had the opportunity to take that further, and my mom sacrificed in order for me to do that. But there’s so much untapped talent out there.- And you’re giving the opportunity.
Wendy Hilliard (00:21:05) – Yeah. It’s really it’s really lovely because the other thing is that we have a lot of talent because one of our national team members, Saki, he lives in public housing in the Polo Grounds, which is, you know, 5 or 6 blocks from the gym. But because of the sponsorship and the partnership we have, all of his gymnastics has been paid for. But he came from being one of those really talented kids that could flip. One of our coaches, Dennis, saw him, brought him over to the gym, and now he got a bronze medal in tumbling and in at the World Championships last year. So it’s like, you have this access if they can get to it. Because as you know, it’s one thing, it’s still to be an elite level. You still have to have the determination. His parents are right there in there, supporting it. And so it still takes a village to get an elite athlete, but it is about having access and the talent,I have to say it’s it’s really wonderful because in addition to us having a lot of talent, a lot of the kids are not doing a gazillion other things. So if they want to do gymnastics with us, gymnastics is their thing. It’s not gymnastics and this and that and that. Because as you know, if you want to get good at something, you got to focus on what. And so a lot of our athletes stay focused on gymnastics.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:22:20) – Right. I want you to speak to the parent out there. You’re talking about the amount of support and athlete needs. My husband and I, I’ve had a heart to help under-resourced kids who have gymnastics talent to be in Gymnastics classes, compete at higher levels. And there was one particular little boy. I saw him just flipping around on the sidewalks, and my husband and I paid for him to train. And he was amazing, so gifted, and I really felt like he was going to go far. But his mother didn’t understand the gift that her son had, and she wasn’t supportive at all.- And unfortunately, that young man’s life took a bad turn and I won’t talk about where he ended up, but it wasn’t a good place. So I want you to help those parents that are listening to understand what can happen if they would support their child in the sport of gymnastics.
Wendy Hilliard (00:23:21) – It’s great. And here’s the thing. Um, it, it will take you far. And it’s not a monetary thing that you have to think about. Like I just told you, you get access to other things. What gymnastics can do foreign is the discipline, like I said, and everyone worries about school. I get this a lot. My kid didn’t do good on his test, so I’m taking him out of gymnastics till he does better on his test. Until he does, I’m like, don’t do that. Do not, do not. I had to do that one for Saqwe one year. His mother was like so crazy, not doing good. I’m not going to let him go to Nationals this year. I’m like, oh my gosh, I got to tell his coach which his coach will be so upset.
Wendy Hilliard (00:23:58) – So I’m like I said, give me a week, I’ll work it out. So I was able to get to the Nationals and he won once he went there. Yes. But here’s the thing for parents here’s and the parents have been good. But I do take them along. But here’s the thing. The, the, experiences that they can for when they’re be very well trained, disciplined, they’ll know how to get through ups and downs. They’ll know so many life lessons that they’ll do just by participating in gymnastics. And when you put something, the emphasis sometimes parents get, you know, their grades are going to do this or it’s going to get a scholarship. Maybe not. It’s not. It’s not about that. It really is about being the best you can be. The confidence. And I’m like, if you got girls out there, I’m like, you got to keep them in sports. Let me tell you, half the reason what I do, what I do is to keep my girls in sports so that they will be confident with their bodies.Right?
Wendy Hilliard (00:24:51) – They’ll be disciplined whenever they go away. They come back to college. You’re like, oh, Coach Wendy, you know I do. I do so good. I really miss training so hard. But when I do this, I work this hard. You know, they have all this background. So I do that for my girls especially. But for girls and boys, it’s just when you support your kid and you have to do it. It’s one of those things that you just have to go with it if they’re happy. And let me tell you, if they have a passion for something, you know, it’s like you gotta run with it because kids are all over the place, have so many things. If they find something that they want to do and you’re going to have to want to do gymnastics. Let me tell you, parents, you can’t do it for your kids. Your kids are going to have to want to do it. Gymnastics is one of those things that you can you can try as you may, but it is too freaking hard. So it’s only if your kid wants to do it. So if the kid wants to do it, it’s such a blessing that they find something that they really want to get behind, and it’s going to keep them healthy and it’s going to keep them motivated and determined. But the support is, is critical. And you may think about other things on the side. But I was just telling you, everybody that I’ve I’ve gone through 25,000 kids in gymnastics. Right. But a lot of elite athletes, probably like 300 athletes that have competed. Right. It’s always been a blessing that I always come back and tell me they’re so glad that they participated in this. Being part of a group or a team is a very important part of development of child development. That’s what we’re doing. That’s what gymnastics is. And especially now because after COVID -, yikes. Do we need the kids back in the gym? Do you need them off their phones? Yo, let me tell you, at least if they’re doing gymnastics, they’re off their phones for 2 or 3 hours.
Wendy Hilliard (00:26:33) – That’s a blessing. So it’s like, let’s go for little things. But the support thing, I think for parents, just go with it, support as much as you can. And if not, you can ask for help. If and this is the other thing, you may not have the resources right there, but other people really appreciate, if you have your child and they’re doing something and you ask for a little help, they will jump in there in a minute because they want our young people to be active, and it’ll be the best blessing that’ll come back to you. It may be a little tough while it’s going on, like it’ll take a lot of extra time and a lot of extra this, a lot of extra. But in the end, it’ll be worth it.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:27:12) – When I think about what you just shared, you have debunked a myth that I think way too many people believe, and that is when you’re in gymnastics, The Olympics is the ultimate goal and pretty much the only goal. And if you don’t make the Olympic team, then your career is worth little To nothing. And what you’re saying is there’s so much more to gymnastics than the Olympics. The Olympics are great. It’s, you know, a wonderful opportunity. You’re at the, the peak of the sport, but there’s so much more that translates into every aspect of life.
Wendy Hilliard (00:27:52) – It’s true. It’s everyday. I mean, people have to understand. And if you’re not in sports, you may not get it, but you have it’s a whole community. So the Olympic team this year is like five people on the team, but you have so many people that go to trial. So that’s like another ten people that go to trials. But it’s a system. And everybody that’s been on that journey is supporting what it is. Olympians are great and I give them, it’s great. You only have 565 of them every four years for the Summer games in total of all the sports. But the thing is for me and I didn’t make the Olympic team, but I went to three world championships, 15 foreign countries. I mean, I used to live a life seriously when I was competing on the National team, I was like, well, I got to go to Czech in a couple. I’m going to go to Germany in a few months. I mean, it was just like my life was pretty on it as far as the opportunities I had. But it’s really what it is. And these kids do it. I mean, even my kids, like they go to gymnastics camp, they travel here for a competition and it’s so, it’s opening their eyes to a different world. And that’s that’s what it is. You get to experience and you experience it not because you’re the money to go experience. You experience it because you have a skill. And in order to experience, you have to do good at your skill. And like that’s a really good lesson. You got to be good at something if you want to get something good. So you know that’s what we’re teaching them. You get to go to this competition and get on a plane and missing school. But you get to go on this competition and go see your friends. But that’s only because you’re training hard right. You’re committed to doing something- So this kind of lesson is that is what you want to teach young people to get an experience or to get perks because you’ve worked for it. Let’s be clear. That’s that’s how this this life works. So that’s what we’re trying to do.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:29:38) – That’s a priceless lesson, Wendy. Now.The history of Blacks in gymnastics. Let’s talk about that. I think it’s important because whenever you see someone in a space who looks like you, it gives you the sense of empowerment that you can get there, too. I remember in my first state meet in Virginia, back in, I don’t even know, in the 70s, I because I started gymnastics in the late 70s and I was competing, and there was one other little Black girl, and we had to do a dive roll in our floor routine compulsory. And she did the most beautiful arched dive role. And my coach had been trying to get all of us to do that as well, but nobody could do it. But when I saw her, I thought, oh, if she can do that, then I must be able to do that too.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:30:35) – And I did it. And my coach looked at me and said, where did that come from? And I felt like as a little I mean, nine year old is when I, when I started I felt like. Seeing her, she looked like me. So that meant that I could be just as good as she is. But in my mind, somehow I had learned. Or maybe I caught from circumstances that I would always be inferior when it came to gymnastics and probably some other aspects of life. Which was a lie, of course. But let’s talk about the history and what we have going for us, and for those young athletes to know that.
Wendy Hilliard (00:31:15) – It’s it’s it’s long that our history is long, and we’ve been around for a long time. And to realize that it took a bit of digging to get the information right. Right now, everything, the news travels much faster and things like that. But how it happened. So Pam Majumbarr does my social media for my gymnastics foundation. She’s worked for me for a long time. So at one point, curiously, 8 or 9 years ago, I’m like, oh, I need to find some information. It was like February Black History Month. I’m like, there’s nothing out for gymnastics. There was nothing for me to find. So we started digging. So it was it was a thing. And one of the things I did. So Abie Grossfeld is one of the Olympian Olympic coach, and he’s really, he’s from New York. So we stay in touch. And I just emailed him like, Abie, you know, because he was like on the Olympic team in the 50s. I’m like, Abie, do you know anything about a Black gymnast back in the day or whatever? He sent me this email with like about 25 names and it was gold. I was, I think, Abie, because he was a historian anyway. But he knew people. He knew Sid Oglesby, who was the first Black to win an NCAA championship in, like, vault in the 50s. Right.
Wendy Hilliard (00:32:22) – He told me about James Kanati Allen, which I had to double dig on. So James Kennedy Allen competed for the Olympic team, the men’s Olympic team in gymnastics in 1968. All of us thought that Ron Gallimore was the first Black to make Olympic team, right? That’s what we all thought had no idea. So when I was digging, he said, he told me, I said, I’ve never heard of this guy. What do you mean? And and so he said, well, Carmichael, because he used to train with him and his brother. So Michael was the coach, the UCLA men’s coach, who was living in Lake Hawaii. And so I called Michael. He’s like, hi, Wendy, I’m good. I’m retired. He said, oh yeah, James is Black. We used to train together. Yeah, he’s a Black guy. Because what James told the press in 1968, because he was interviewed, because people have to remember, 1968 was a very volatile time of race relations in America, and a lot of the Blacks did not go to the Olympics.
Wendy Hilliard (00:33:18) – They just they said, I’m not going because I can go to Olympics winning gold medal, but I can come back and I have to be. I can’t be a man or a female. So he told the reporter, he said, I’m not Black, I’m, I’m American Indian, he said at the time, Native American. And so and he probably has that canati. He has that in his, in his, heritage. It’s his thing. But then everybody just forgot. He didn’t really want to have to carry that mantle. It was such a fraught time. So we just everybody kind of forgot about it. And then I, I discovered that and that was one of the things. So we also found out in 1972, Alexander Nicholson was the first Black woman to win a world championship in trampoline. right.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:34:02) – Ohhhhhh Yes.
Wendy Hilliard (00:34:03) – So we just found out all of this information. And I think people I mean, I really think it did take digging. but we’re also able to highlight folks. I was talking to Chene’ who’s an actual sport athlete and she was like world champion, right, in acrobatics. And she she’s really fabulous. But you don’t we want to highlight not just artistic gymnastics or even just rhythmic gymnastics, but trampoline, tumbling, acrobatics. we have a long history and it should people should be really proud of that as we continue to make history like Fisk University and now Talladega and and Simone Biles and Gabby Douglas. Gabby, that was I was on hand for that one. And that was powerful. history makes it it makes a difference. And, I’m glad that people now come to us. It’s really funny where gymnastics foundation, BBC be reaching out to us. It’s like, can you give us a history? Because one of the British athletes won the gold medal on parallel bars and they’re like, we need some background. I was like, okay, there.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:35:09) – There you go, Yes.
Wendy Hilliard (00:35:13) – Yeah.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:35:14) – That is so good. So, you know, you talked about several of the amazing Black gymnasts who are out there today. There are a lot of Black gymnasts and their parents who are going to have their eye on the 2024 Olympic trials, because there will likely be more athletes competing at that level who look like them than ever before. So what wisdom and encouragement can you give to that gymnast and the family listening right now as they travel their own gymnastics journey? Because not only have you been there yourself. But you have a son who is there.
Wendy Hilliard (00:35:50) – You know, I say to those parents, like we were talking earlier, you just kind of support your child. There are ups and downs, as you know, in gymnastics. And that’s the biggest lesson. And to be honest with you, it’s harder to take as a parent. And I will tell you this, as a parent, I had to watch my son competing. If he makes a mistake, I’m devastated and I’m sitting up in the audience. You know, I can be on the floor. I’ve coached, you know, I don’t really coach him directly, but I can often times be on the floor because I can. But it’s really hard. And I, and I, and you guys parents, you can have this. It’s very hard as a parent to watch your child compete sometimes or go through the ups and downs. It’s really tough because you want to be able to be there. But as a parent, you just being there is what it’s about. It’s going to be hard. You know, as an adult that you’re going to get some ups and downs. So your child, you may think it’s a lesson and I learned this with my son. It was really interesting. He missed going to a world championship one time by like, I don’t know, 2/10 or something. He’s been back and he had to wait till like the whole year. Yes. And I told him, I said, you know, “BJ, this is going to be really tough, but you got to get up and go to practice and you got to keep going to practice until you get better. And some of your other friends who you may have beaten a couple meets and they get to go and la la la la.”
Wendy Hilliard (00:37:10) – But he was really determined. I saw him, and this is what you find out from your child, if they’re willing to go back and they’re going to put in the time, it’s really got to be their call. And it can be difficult. Parents have to be very patient. You know, you have to give, don’t make decisions rash decisions off of one competition or this. If you’ve been trained in gymnastics for 5 or 6 years, you don’t decide overnight you’re going to quit. You know, because this judge should do this like, you know, take, take, take a breath. and so it’s really important the parents to hang in there with your child. And no matter where their journey goes and they may not feel it right then and there, I think, Kim, that’s what you mentioned at the time. You may make it, which would be great or you may not make it. It should be devastating. But the next year or 2 or 3 years after that, you’re going to be proud of your work.
Wendy Hilliard (00:38:01) – You’re going to be proud of what you’re able to accomplish. You just have a little time and space away because you were still one of very few, no matter what. If you’re a top athlete, if you’re a top gymnast, ain’t nobody else practicing eight hours a day, six days a week doing anything. So you’re unique, right? And as a parent, you support that and know that that they’re going to have ups and downs. You’re going to have ups and downs just like a child has ups and downs, but it’s really up to the parent to stay calm. That is the place,because sometimes parents get really intense and they want to express themselves and voice it out. Always be gracious as you want your children to be and say, it’s going to be okay next time, honey, it’s going to be all right. We’re going to get through this. Make sure the one thing I do tell them it’s really important for coaches to do. You have to have trust with your coaches. You have to have.
Wendy Hilliard (00:38:52) – I’m just letting you know it’s kind of like a little triangle. It’s the gymnasts and then this coach and then it’s the family. And once one of those things is not working, it’s going to be hard to move forward. And so, you know, you can have chances where you talk with your coach. Communication is you know, communication is everything. But always make sure because I did, I always totally respected my coach. You know it’s not. You have everything they say, but you want to have respect. And you’re. And you work with the parent and keep the communication open. And always be positive. Like, don’t shut that door. Let me slamming the door. You may have to move on, but don’t be slamming it behind you. Make sure and be gracious because the gymnastics world is like this big, Kim.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:39:36) – It is tiny. Yes.
Wendy Hilliard (00:39:39) – Yeah it’s little. And so as parents, I know how tough it can be. I can tell you as being a parent, as elite athlete, I’m really proud.
Wendy Hilliard (00:39:46) – But yeesh, it ain’t easy. And I’ve had my moments. But you have to be as patient as your child and and stay on that journey because you guys are doing it together.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:39:56) – Such great advice, Wendy. And you actually have a podcast dedicated to parents raising high-level athletes. Can you tell me how to find that?
Wendy Hilliard (00:40:06) – Yeah, well, it’s all over. And all this Spotify and Apple, things like that. It’s called Champion Sports Moms. And what we do is I talk to champion athletes of all different sports like, you know, basketball, wheelchair basketball. It can be gymnastics, it can be anything. We have wrestling and we talk to them because I want parents to get a full, well-rounded, advice from different parents and some of the parents. So I had some, you know, Michelle Dresser, who was a gymnastics Olympian and her daughter was an elite wheelchair athlete, and how she had to navigate having a child that had a disability and how to keep them in sports. And then I talked to Elena Nichols, who is a champion Paralympic athlete for wheelchair basketball and skiing and how she parents- Right. She has a young child who is able-bodied, but she’s got a disability. So, sports is a wonderful way to navigate your way through life on different levels. And what we do for Champion Sports Mom is just try to give the best advice for the kids we got and how we’re regaining their through, through sports because, as you know, Kim, the other thing you have is you have this experience as being an athlete and you can bring that on to your child.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:41:21) – That’s so good. Now, I’m going to put you on the spot here. We’ve talked about the Wendy Hilliard Gymnastics Foundation. If there’s someone listening and they want to bring your program to their city, how can they make that happen?
Wendy Hilliard (00:41:36) – Work really hard now. You know it’s a thing. You reach out to me. Yeah. No, that’s a curveball. So. And I do this in different cities because it’s. I mentioned the mine. So reach out to me. Reach out through our foundation. but also it’s about relationships, too. Gymnastics needs to be more accessible, aross. You know, I’m working on some of the projects in new cities because, you know, and this is really interesting, a lot of the YMCA has had a lot of gymnastics, but they’re reducing the amount of gymnast. They’re kind of switched them out for soccer. And which is I have nothing against women’s soccer, but it’s like a financial thing. You can have one coach with 25 or 30 kids, or you can have six coaches that need to be with you. You know what I’m saying? It’s a thing. And so unfortunately, the middle part where a lot of people who did gymnastics, as a at an entry-level, right, in gymnastics, a lot of people weren’t able to do it because you need a middle place, because private gyms can be expensive and they’re usually not close by anywhere. and then also you want to if you want to do something like I’m doing, you gotta have relationships you gotta talk to, you know, let me say talk to the people in the recreation department, talks to city officials.Um, you really talk it up. It’s it’s it’s a planning effort, but gymnastics is, you know, is a really great foundational sport. It’s really great sport. Like, even if you don’t stay in gymnastics, all of the people that leave my team go, and they’re the star on the volleyball team and then the star of the soccer team.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:43:12) – It’s such a great foundation,
Wendy Hilliard (00:43:14) – Yeah. It’s a great foundational sport. So just be active and be active in your community. I’m a big community person, as you know, and I think we need that one. So if you are inspired to go out and do it, I bless you and I’ll be here to help.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:43:30) – Okay. That’s good to know because I was saying, what if they want the Wendy Hilliard Foundation to be in their city? So you are willing to help someone give it, give wisdom, give advice and maybe expand your horizons. I know you’re in Harlem, in Detroit already?
Wendy Hilliard (00:43:47) – Yea, I’m in Harlem, Detroit. I have a couple other things working on, and if we can get this model going, we can bring gymnastics back to the city, to the urban areas.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:43:54) – I love it, I love it, okay, Wendy, you are an amazing woman. You’ve accomplished so much as an athlete and in your post-athletic career. And. You’re absolutely brilliant. And I want to ask, what does living in brilliance mode look like for you?
Wendy Hilliard (00:44:15) – You know, that’s such a good question. And I sometimes have to get it a lot, because sometimes to do things you really want to do, it takes some oomph. And I think that comes from my it does. It’s like it takes some resilience. I have to say, yeah, when I’m doing this, and we just had a really big competition here in New York, as we call it, the Harlem Gymnastics Invitational. We had 800 athletes and, you know, like 4000 people coming through. And it’s like an artistic and rhythmic. It was just everybody was flying everywhere for three days. But you know what, as our team, we brought it together is that you have to have courage to go out to do something, right. So if you’re the courage you’re going to take on whatever it is, the challenges, and then you have to have confidence in yourself. And I’m not trying to say this in a second, but gymnastics gives you some confidence. Who else is going to go out in the mat by themselves and be judged by four people? Right. Come on. If you’re going to go out there and put yourself out there from the time you’re little for like 10 or 12 years, you’re going to get some confidence up in there. So, you know, I, I, I’ve gained confidence. When I’m in my brilliance. I just kind of tell myself that you have the experience, you have the knowledge, you’ve done your homework. Let’s be clear. You can’t you can’t just fly. You have to do the work, which is often the research or whatever. And I feel confident in moving forward. When I have all that pulled together. I’ve done everything I could do, I’ve written it down, I’ve done my work, and I’m out there. And so you just got to get out there. So I, I, I feel most confident because I’ve got some challenges up in here. I’ve got a handle and I’m just going to keep on keeping on.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:45:55) – Keep, keep keeping on. So my final question for you is similar, but what might brilliance mode look like for the gymnast who’s listening to you right now?
Wendy Hilliard (00:46:05) – You know, for the gymnasts listening, if you already have the love of gymnastics, which is great, and what you want to do is, you know, the sport will do a lot for you, but you can do a lot for your sport and bringing your personality to the sport and what you want to do, and I do that in saying is have confidence in your abilities. You have to have confidence in your abilities to perform well. You can’t be second-guessing when you’re about to do that release on the bar. You can’t be second-guessing when you’re about to do this. You gotta have confidence. And so that’s appreciate the practice and and learn to love the hard work.
Wendy Hilliard (00:46:44) – I think that’s the key as is put confidence in that if you do your homework and your homework. Meaning if you practice that thing again and again and the same skill and you come back and do it, then that’s what gives you the confidence. And so what makes competing worthwhile is knowing that you’ve done the work before you got to the competition, right? No. That you put in your time. And then when you get out there, it’s time to shine. It’s like…Go. That’s that’s what you do. You have to do. You have to do both of them together. Either one of them won’t work without the other one, though.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:47:21) – Okay. Thank you Wendy, and thank you for again taking the time to join me today. You have so much wisdom. I can talk to you all day long, but we don’t have the time to do that because you have to get back to work. And I’m just so grateful for you and for all you’re doing for the community. Thank you.
Wendy Hilliard (00:47:41) – Oh, it’s my pleasure. It’s so great to talk to you. You came because you’re so fabulous. So it’s good for me to to talk to you, I love it. Oh, thanks.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:47:54) – Thanks for listening. If you want to learn more about Wendy Hilliard, check out our show notes on In BrillianceMode.com/podcast, and to connect with Wendy on Instagram. Follow her at Wendy Hilliard Foundation. If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Resilience to Brilliance, please share it with others who might be encouraged by it. And to make sure you don’t miss future episodes, follow or subscribe to the Resilience to Brilliance podcast on YouTube and on your favorite podcast platforms. You can also follow me on Instagram at Real Kim Anthony.
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