Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:00:00) – The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are their own and do not represent the views, thoughts and opinions of UCLA Athletics, UCLA gymnastics, or the Bruin Gymnastics alumni community. The content of this podcast is strictly for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:00:21) – To show up in love and light and teach people that they are love and light and that we’re all part of the same family, and we’re all here to help each other, all here for a reason. We all have a purpose. Just to trust. To trust their brilliance. To trust their light. Because everyone has it.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:00:49) – Welcome to the Bruin Gymnastics Edition of the Resilience to Brilliance podcast, where you’ll be inspired by riveting behind the scenes stories of UCLA gymnastics legends. I’m your host, Kim Hamilton Anthony. Here we go. Have you ever met someone who genuinely cares about people and is willing to do whatever they can to help? Well, Jennifer Greenhut is just that type of person. She competed on the U.S. national gymnastics team before joining UCLA on scholarship.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:01:22) – Jennifer has written a book with her husband, Larry Tollin, and it’s called Everyone Needs a Larry Love with a Twist of Cancer. It’s quirky, it’s fun to read, and it shares their perspective surrounding Jennifer being diagnosed with stage four cancer. Jen and I sat down to discuss her story, and I found out how cancer shifted her perspective on life. Hey, Jen. Welcome.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:01:55) – Hi, Kim. Thanks for having me.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:01:58) – It’s wonderful to have you here. So let’s start off with a little bit about your gymnastics career. At age 14, you left home to go train for the Olympics. Tell us what that world was like for you.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:02:12) – So I was growing up in New York City. I had been in dance and piano and ballet and singing and gymnastics. As a kid, my parents put me into everything, and I just loved gymnastics. And I was obsessed with watching the Romanians, watching the Russians. So I just was like, on a quest. Like, where do people train to go to the Olympics in the United States? And one summer I said to my parents, you know, this is my dream, and I want to leave home and I want to train for the Olympics.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:02:45) – And they were like, no, no way. What are you talking about? And so back and forth, back and forth, you know, I’m not taking no for an answer. We had a deal like I was going to look into the four top clubs at that time was Texas, Bela Karolyi, there’s Oregon, there was Allentown, Pennsylvania, Parkettes. And I went to Parkettes and it was the closest place to New York City. So we made a deal. Like I would go there during the week, I would change schools and I would go home every weekend. And that’s what I did for the rest of high school. And I was training for the Olympics, and I was excelling, and I was loving it. And, uh, as you know, I blew out my knee. And when I was on the national team and it took me away from the Olympics and it put me on the path of UCLA gymnastics.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:03:33) – Yes, yes. Now our paths crossed. I don’t know if you remember me back then, but I remember you.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:03:39) – You were the most flexible, artistic gymnast I had ever seen. My goodness.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:03:46) – Well, like, say, nicknaming Gumby or some Gumby.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:03:48) – Yes. Yeah, yeah, I was going to say that, but I’m like….
Jennifer Greenhut (00:03:52) – It was like my back. Yeah, my back was so flexible. Right? Uh, I think it still is. But it’s funny because whenever I do talk about gymnastics, like even yesterday when we were talking last night, I had a dream, like about the balance beam, and I was doing front walkovers, you know, the way that I did it.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:04:10) – And so on the side. You did it sideways, right?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:04:13) – Yeah.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:04:14) – Yeah, yeah, sorry about that.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:04:15) – He was the only one that did it. But it was amazing. It wasn’t it wasn’t really that hard. It was just like Cirque du Soleil kind of stuff.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:04:24) – So you went to UCLA. Did you have high hopes there? Did you plan on continuing on the US national team?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:04:32) – No, I did not have high hopes.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:04:34) – I actually was, um. You know, burnt out already from putting so much of my entire life into gymnastics and there’s no future of gymnastics. So I was really kind of counting the days since the first year until the last of, like, my life kind of starting. So, you know, I didn’t excel.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:04:59) – You were you were in retirement mode.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:05:01) – I was in retirement mode. I made it by, you know, I competed, obviously, but, you know, I was I was just looking for, like, my life to start.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:05:08) – Right. That’s interesting. As I think about it now, gymnastics doesn’t necessarily stop at college because they can earn money and make a living out of it. There’s no penalty for being in a commercial or doing something else. And we didn’t have that. So college was the end. It was the retirement path for most gymnast, right? So exactly as you’re in that state of mind and you’re just trying to make it through, um, what did you think about your future after you were waiting for your life to start? Because we didn’t have a life.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:05:46) – We had no life.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:05:47) – You had to quit everything else you were doing, and you did gymnastics, and that was it. So what did you want your life to look like after gymnastics?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:05:57) – I mean, I didn’t know, I just couldn’t wait to not have to do gymnastics. That was like my my huge goal. I remember just thinking it was just so far away, like, you know, it’s like kind of gymnastics is like you’re kind of in a war. You’re in this little bubble and you know, you’re you’re so close to all the gymnasts, and that’s the only life, you know. So, I mean, I remember even, like having a boyfriend for the first time who was a football player who played football with your husband. And, um, he was my boyfriend, like, all through college, because that’s, you know, when I date someone I like, date them to marry them. Right? Like, I didn’t know what to expect from a boyfriend. So it was like just learning to be a regular person, um, and not have to go to the gym and not have to, like, count calories and not have to, like, you know, just there’s such a control thing with gymnastics.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:06:58) – And I just kind of like, wanted to lose control. I wanted to be out of control. And I really didn’t know what that looked like other than I knew, um, I wanted to go back to New York, and I don’t know if you know this, but I went into acting school right after college.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:07:15) – Yes, I was going to ask you about that.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:07:18) – I fell so much in love with it, and I was really good at it because as a gymnast, you know, we’re controlling every emotion. We’re controlling all of our feelings. We don’t cry, we’re strong, we are soldiers, and we show up and we do whatever we have to do. And so it was like unwinding all of that and like allowing myself to cry, allowing myself to be angry, allowing myself to be like, messy. And, you know, I mean, I went I went totally opposite. I like, started smoking. I was like, you know. Yeah, like, I mean, I was like, I like to drink, you know, I like I really just was like the bad girl, you know, you’re like, in a good way.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:07:59) – In a good way. Exactly, exactly.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:08:02) – You were finally in control of your life. And you wanted to try some things that you hadn’t tried before.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:08:07) – I mean, I wasn’t really in control. I was out of control in the other direction.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:08:11) – Okay, I get that.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:08:13) – But I did enjoy the freedom and the expression and acting gave me a sort of vehicle to feel safe expressing myself. I still didn’t really express myself in real life, but as an actress and in acting class, I did.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:08:28) – Um, you get that outlet.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:08:30) – Yeah. So that’s what I did right after.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:08:33) – And then didn’t you also participate in the music industry? I remember seeing something about The Greenhut Band.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:08:43) – Greenhut The Band. Yeah, Greenhut The Band. Because I eventually wanted to be my own artist, and I felt like having a band called Greenhut The Band, uh, people would understand. Oh, Jennifer Greenhut from Greenhut the Band. So I was sort of my other dream.
Jennifer Greenhut Tollin (00:09:03) – But yeah, I was very creative and I loved writing and, um, I learned that I had a voice and I actually, uh, my first song that I ever wrote was for my first marriage, which lasted for four months. But I got to write a song with my grandfather, who was a musician, musician, and had a band.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:09:23) – So it’s in your blood.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:09:24) – It’s it’s in my blood. It was in my blood. Okay. And, um, the song. I’m so glad that I got to do that with him because he had passed away right before the wedding. So it was, like, really meaningful that we had that. And we had our first dance to that song. Uh, the marriage lasted four months, but that doesn’t matter. Yeah, that’s besides the point. You know, I sort of got married to my gymnastics coach, if you want to think of it that way. You know, it was like the controlling, uh, abusive, strong, masculine person that, like, I felt like, could take care of me.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:10:01) – But it wasn’t really your gymnastics coach. It was just a person.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:10:04) – No, it was, you know, it was my actual, uh, agents. Uh, he was at my agency, so he was an agent. Uh, so it kind of like, was forming this Hollywood team. You know, I thought, like, he’s going to be a successful agent. I’ll be a successful actress. My grandparents on my father’s side were agent and actress. So I thought, oh, this is so cool. I’m, like, kind of redoing history, right? Little did I know that, um, you know, he wasn’t a nice guy all the time, and, I mean, I knew that, but I also just sort of ignored it. He asked me to marry him, and I wasn’t going to say no, you know? Really? Why not say no? Why not say no? And somebody asked me to marry them. You know, it was like, um, wow.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:10:51) – Okay. And then you’re starting to set the wedding and plan it. And then right before the wedding, you know, it was like this huge gut instinct saying, don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it. But the the person that doesn’t want to listen to that gut saying, it’s okay, it’s just wedding jitters, you know, we’ll be okay. Everything’s going to be okay in the future. And then, you know, it went downhill right away. And of course, I knew I wanted to get out before anything happened, like having kids and. Knowing that every day I stay is a day harder to leave. So.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:11:30) – So who was that person who didn’t want to listen to what you were truly feeling? And how did she come about? Where did that come from?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:11:42) – I think it came from gymnastics, because when you’re training for the Olympics, you’re not really allowed to listen to the things that hurt or that get in the way of. Training five hours a day.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:11:58) – You know, you tune out of your body in a way. You. You’re so in your body because you have to be for gymnastics. But you’re also like, okay, I have pain in my ankle. I pain in my knee. I have pain in my shoulder. It doesn’t matter. You know, I’m tuning out of that. And I think you also are so used to living for your coaches, your team, proving yourself all the time, every day in the gym and and making mistakes are not good. Making mistakes or you feel shame. You feel guilt. You feel bad about yourself. You don’t feel worthy. So it was all about, uh, not listening to the person because that person isn’t worthy. You know, it’s like you develop that low self-esteem through gymnastics. Of course, gymnastics gave me a lot of great tools as well, like discipline. And, you know, you follow your heart, you’re passionate, your strength. But there was that other side that, um, you you kind of give all your power to other people, right? And you let them control you.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:13:02) – And you probably understand, too.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:13:04) – Absolutely. I’ve, um, wrestled with that same thing in my adulthood as well. And, um, I love that you’re talking about that because I think sometimes we live a life, you know, after gymnastics in a way that allows other people to control us. And we don’t even realize it’s happening.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:13:24) – Exactly. Because you’re just so used to doing that.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:13:27) – Yeah, that’s what you do.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:13:28) – And it feels good to please them, you know? And that makes you feel loved and worthy. And then it feels not good when they’re not pleased. But it’s all about the other person. It’s not really about valuing yourself.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:13:43) – Because it was never allowed to be about, you.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:13:46) – No. Exactly, exactly. So it’s kind of cool that we get to grow up and yes, and understand and and work on ourselves and evolve from all of that, because there is a positive that came out of gymnastics and I wasn’t forced into it, I chose it. And if if somebody said, you can’t do that, I probably would have been pissed off my entire life, you know, and thinking like, no one let me follow my dreams.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:14:10) – Yeah. What if what would have happened if I had gone to the Olympics and and followed my passion? So it all works out for a reason. But there was a time after gymnastics, I was mad at my my parents for for letting me do what I wanted to do because I was like, I was so messed up. Didn’t you see? I was so messed up? Like, when wouldn’t it be a better if I was a normal kid? But, um, you know, now I understand everything really does happen for a reason. And. And I was happy that I was able to at least follow my heart then, you know? Yes. And I look back, and I’m actually happy that I did blow out my knee. And I didn’t have to wait a year and not go to the Olympics or train for the Olympics, because I could have just not even wanted to go to college after after, who knows what would have happened.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:14:57) – Yes, back then, a lot of Olympians never did go to college because they usually signed lucrative deals, and then the NCAA wouldn’t allow you to compete at that level.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:15:10) – Exactly. And I remember at that time it was a big decision because I was on the national team and I had given up so much to be where I was. So, so even if I maybe was like feeling a little burnt out and maybe I was like questioning my desire to go to the Olympics and keep training because of feeling so burnt out, I knew I wouldn’t have given up on my dreams, and I probably would have suffered and push myself through all of the stuff just to keep training. So blowing out my knee actually made an easy decision for me. Like, you know, you get to retire and go to college. In a way,
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:15:51) – I get to do this. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s interesting how some of the more challenging things that happen in our lives can actually be a blessing in disguise. And we’re going to talk about that a little later in your story as well. But let’s go back to you’re coming out of this somewhat abusive relationship that is reminiscent of your coaches that you worked with, but then you had this dream of also becoming a wife and a mom and a person who was charitable, those types of things.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:16:26) – And at some point after that first marriage ended, you decided that you wanted to start dating again. You ended up meeting someone who was different than anyone you had ever dated before. So first of all, tell me, how did you meet him and what was it about him that made you continue the relationship?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:16:48) – So how I met Larry, uh, was on Match.com and. My tagline said looking for my Elton John because as a lyricist, I was writing my music, my my music. But I wanted to meet like an Elton John because I felt like I was Bernie Taupin and Larry, who was in the music industry and also a piano player and also loved Elton John. He was like, who is this girl? I want to. He reached out and then from there, you know, we became friends first. Uh, he wouldn’t leave me alone. And we started we started writing songs together. I kind of didn’t want to jump into a relationship right after eight year one, but I also wanted to be open to possibly exploring this guy that seems to really like me.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:17:39) – And we have this ability to write songs together, which I thought was pretty cool. So after four months of being friends and getting to know each other, and he’ll say, like he’d never did that before, he always just like someone started dating them,
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:17:53) – okay
Jennifer Greenhut (00:17:55) – He was never like that guy that, oh, like Harry met Sally. Let’s be friends first. But it turns out like we’re exactly like Harry met Sally. And, uh, that Sally just gets cancer in our story. But, yeah, so Larry was very different. I mean, he was he was nice. He was kind. He was crazy. He was fun. He was. All of it. And he was very passionate. Yeah.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:18:17) – You mentioned that your boyfriend that I skipped, I skipped a whole eight years. So you mentioned that the reason why you didn’t stay together is because he didn’t want to have children. Did Larry want to have children?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:18:31) – No. However, when we met on Match.com, I for some reason in my mind saw his profile saying, he’s open.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:18:41) – You know, he’s not saying yes or no, he’s just open. And my my profile said definitely wanting to have kids. So him reaching out, you would assume he sees that on my profile and knows that I want to have kids. So our first date, um, you know, we’re in the date and I was just like, oh, you know, it just comes up like, what are you looking for? You know, and what are your dreams and your goals? And I was like, I really want our kids and I can’t wait to have kids. And and I’ve been just searching. I didn’t want to have kids with the wrong person. And Larry’s like, wait a minute, didn’t you see my profile? I don’t want to have kids. I’m like, oh, I didn’t see that. It looked like you were open. He was like, well, your profile said you didn’t wanna have kids. I’m like, no, my profile said, like, I definitely wanted to have kids.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:19:27) Wow.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:19:28) – So anyway, um, he’s like, okay, we’ll just have a dinner and and say goodbye and it’ll be great, you know? And then at the end of the dinner, like maybe the entree, he’s like, you know, this is going to sound really crazy, but I could totally see having a kid with you. And I was like, first date. I was like, it does sound pretty crazy. He’s like, I’m just saying I could totally see it. And I and I trusted him like, he’s not lying to me and he’s like, just give me another chance. Like, let’s just go in one more date, you know? Because I wouldn’t trust me. I wouldn’t lead you on or whatever.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:20:03) – As I was reading the book, it seemed like you were a little bit standoffish, a little bit cold, not as warm as he was.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:20:10) – Very not a little bit very, very.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:20:12) – I was trying to be nice. Jen.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:20:17) – I know, but I was also just getting out of a huge relationship.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:20:22) – He knew that eventually I wasn’t going to be sad about this other relationship, and he for some reason, thought like we were perfect for each other. I just wasn’t there yet. I don’t know if you ever say higher self, lower self. My higher self actually really trusted him and his knowing before I knew. It was basically a year and a half, um, after getting married, that we went through three rounds of IVF and you know, how to had a flood in our house and had to move out for a couple of months. And it was like very just a roller coaster ride right after we got married. And the rollercoaster ride wasn’t, um, making me feel good because I wasn’t getting pregnant and I was every, every round was like a little more like a downer and depression, like, you know, worrying about what’s going to happen if I don’t have kids. What am I going to do?
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:21:32) – Because in your mind you’re thinking, that is what’s going to satisfy me.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:21:35) – That’s like my purpose.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:21:37) – Yeah, I’m supposed to be a mom, and I was always searching for a purpose, and I was like, Maybe I’m going to be a mom and I’m going to be charitable and raise kids and and do that whole thing. Um, and so after three rounds and I was like, you know, this is costing a lot of money. This is not great on your body. Why don’t we take a time out and get a dog? And I was not happy about that. But I actually fell in love with our dog right away. He became our baby in a way, and he made us a family. Beau. And then four months after that, after, like, I’m hitting rock bottom and just really not sure where life is going. I was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:22:19) – Take me back to the day that happened, the day that you found out that you had stage four breast cancer. Where were you? What were the circumstances? What was going through your mind at the time?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:22:30) – It’s so interesting because you know what led me just to the doctors, um, was just finding a lump under my arm, and I thought it was just a fatty cyst or something that they would remove, and it would be no problem because I’ve had those before.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:22:46) – So I just thought it was some another fatty cyst. And also that year I had a mammogram, I had my checkups, everything was clear. So like cancer was the last thing I was thinking about. And I went to the doctor and they basically were like very concerned that day. And they said, let’s try to get a biopsy right away. So I remember it was a Friday. I got a biopsy, and Larry and I were on our way to vacation and not vacation, but we were going to Vegas for a couple days that had been planned. It’s kind of like our holiday trip, and this was in December. So, um, we get the biopsy on Friday and the doctor said, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen this a lot. I’m pretty sure it’s going to be cancer. I’m not positive we’re going to send it in, but, uh, it’ll probably be stage two. And you know. We’ll deal. And I remember freaking out a little bit. But also, you know, you don’t know if it’s cancer.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:23:55) – Could be something else in stage two. Well, cancer is cancer. So it was very scary. So but we go to Vegas and um, on Monday she calls us and we’re in Vegas and. Uh, she basically confirms that it’s breast cancer. It’s triple negative breast cancer, which is the most aggressive kind. And she still is like, you know, I’m sure it’s probably stage two, but we got to get you in an MRI. We got to get you in a Pet scan, Cat scan, brain scan, and just make sure nothing else is going on. And by the end of the week, the next Friday, every test that I had had shown more cancer and more cancer. And so by the end of the week, I was stage four. And so that was just the tripiest, tripiest part that I was walking around the world, like feeling fine little lump under my arm. And I have stage four triple negative breast cancer. So and she’s like, okay, you gotta start treatment.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:24:57) – We got to get you in treatment right away. You gotta find an oncologist. And that was the beginning. And you know, I thought my first reaction was, um, I didn’t fulfill my purpose, which was having kids and what I was supposed to do on this in this world. So the universe was sort of like trying to get me out and let’s kill her. And. Let her start again.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:25:22) – Those are some pretty heavy feelings.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:25:25) Yeah
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:25:26) But that’s where you were at that time.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:25:28) – That’s where I was. Yeah. I felt like so unworthy and like I did nothing, you know, with my life. But, um. But thank God I learned something different. But the road to finding an oncologist was, again, scary because I met with all. I met with three hospitals, three doctors. The two were also we’re very, like, concerned, you know, they’re like, we got to get treatment. We gotta blast you with chemo and this and that. And and I was praying for a sign like what doctor to pick? And then I met my last doctor at UCLA and felt safe in his office right away.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:26:05) – And I felt like I was given this sign, like he feels he was making me feel safe. That’s a good sign. And he told me that if I had gotten pregnant when I had wanted to get pregnant, the pregnancy would have killed me. And that was like the biggest turning point in my journey, because I saw that everything I was wanting would have killed me. So the universe was saving my life and not punishing me. And so maybe cancer is saving my life too.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:26:34) – Wow. Now. Dealing with cancer is a huge strain on any relationship. And you and Larry had only been married for how long?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:26:46) – A year and a half.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:26:47) – A year and a half. So you’re now dealing with a life or death situation. How did that impact your marriage and your relationship?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:26:58) – It definitely eventually it was either going to break us up or it was going to bring us closer. And for us, it brought us closer for Larry. He has he had like this gut feeling like me, Larry, I don’t my destiny is not losing my wife that I just married.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:27:19) – So in his mind, I was going to live in my mind as scared as I was I just had this gut feeling cancer was going to be the best thing that happened to me. And in the meantime, it was up to me to. To be happy through the treatment and and learning how to do that. And basically it’s all about the stories that we tell ourselves in our head. You know, chemo was medicine that was saving my life, losing my hair was and, you know, getting to experience what it’s like to be bald and my hair is going to come back and it’s going to be better than ever. Now I’m getting a cleanse, a chemo cleanse, and cancer was basically cleansing all of my negative cells, giving me a fresh, new, healthy body, you know, new outlook on life. I was just so grateful every day that I had, not knowing if I was going to live or die and just wanting to have everyday mean something. And and then as I was cancer free and four months after my diagnosis, I felt like, wow, I must have learned something.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:28:34) – I feel like I was being a gift from the universe, from like, God or whatever to share. Like if if I can do this, everybody can do this. And it was all about like our mindset and how we get to go through every challenge and we believe in our challenges and. Understand there’s a reason for all of the challenges, whether it’s disease or divorce or death or moving or loss or children or no children. Like there’s a reason for it all, and it’s just up to us to kind of believe that. And then, and then embrace it and look for the lessons, because there were so many amazing lessons I got from cancer. Oh, and I’m still processing. Yeah.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:29:20) – I’m sure you are. Jen. Yeah, I and I do want to get into some of those lessons in a few minutes, but I wanted to read a portion of your book. So on page 171 of your book, you talk about. In that chapter how you had this flashback and correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you were under anesthesia.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:29:43) – You were going under before your double mastectomy, and you had this flashback of your gymnastics career and this controlling environment and somewhat abusive environment that you were in. And on page 171, you write, the gymnast inside gave me all the tools I needed to endure the treatment and necessary surgeries to get through cancer. It took getting cancer to help me remember who I once was. To heal old wounds and to completely love and see this little girl. She had to be so strong all the time, and she never felt good enough or safe unless she was perfect. She never honored her own feelings because she didn’t want to make waves. Her value was directly related to the score she received. I saw her, me, with so much compassion and appreciation for all that I had endured. Now all I felt was love. Only love for her. For me, for everything. I wasn’t scared anymore. I knew I could count on myself. I knew what I wanted in life and I was going to get it.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:31:13) – Jen,That was powerful.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:31:15) – The way you read it was powerful. It’s like I was like, oh my God, I can’t believe I wrote that. Yes. And yeah, it’s so true. It’s so true. And. Um, that’s still how I feel today. It taught me so much about the power of love, and and I needed to heal from my past. And cancer did that for me. Cancer really healed me. Stage four cancer healed me.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:31:45) – Yes, yes, which is mind boggling when you think about it, that it took something so deadly to help you to recognize that little girl in you, that perhaps you just pushed down. You didn’t allow her to live and to be and have a voice in life. And cancer brought you into a different space. And I loved that you were able to see her, that even now you’re able to embrace what you’ve been through and what you’ve overcome. Mhm.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:32:18) – It’s pretty cool to, to know that. I mean, I truly believe everyone has that inside of them and we’re all so much.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:32:32) – We’re all just love. Love beings and cancer was part of me. That was the the self-hating part, and it was almost like me loving the entirety of me. All the things that I kind of felt shameful or guilty or not good enough. And it was me just loving the entire being. And that’s kind of why I tell people like, don’t hate cancer, don’t fight it, don’t battle it like it’s trying to show you and teach you something about yourself. Cancer is in your body. This is your your genes that are asking for like love and to be seen and to be heard. And and I’m so glad that I just listened, you know, and I trusted and I forgave and that was my superpower in in getting through everything and. And you know, it’s pretty crazy. Once I understood the lessons and once my body did align and change and kind of when you align, you kind of vibrate with a different energy. The cancer just dissolved and just disappeared.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:33:50) – Let’s go back to the lessons that you’ve learned.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:33:54) – You talk about how cancer taught you some things. I’m sure it taught you some things about yourself, things about even your husband as he cared for you during cancer. And I’m sure it taught you some things about the world.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:34:12) – Yeah. Cancer was an amazing class in school. And first of all. We’re all here for each other. So, you know, I couldn’t have gone through cancer alone. I was so grateful to have a partner. Larry was my husband. But it doesn’t have to be a husband. It can be a friend. It can be a mother. It can be a father. It can be a sister. You know, just. We’re all I learned how to receive because I think also, as women were always so giving and just doing everything for other people. And it felt like I was being asked to receive and open and surrender to all the love and the support and the help that I was, that I had. And my job was not to fight it. It was just to be grateful for it.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:35:02) – And and that was a huge thing for me, you know, to feel like I was being held up in a way, uh, from my family, my friends and my husband. So a lot of times when I’m feeling like I have so much to do, it’s kind of like just, no, you don’t like, you have help, ask for help when you need, um, because we’re all here for each other to, um, just trusting whatever is happening, like. Our souls are in charge. We’re not in charge. And so when we can, like, kind of stop fighting everything that happens to us and just sort of, in a way, become more of like the observer of what’s being in our life and asking the questions like, why is this in our life? What are we supposed to learn from it? What are we supposed to, um, do with it? It’s like life is kind of like a school. And let’s stop fighting. Like all of the challenge that we face, because these challenges are here to help us and not hurt us.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:36:07) – And so that was a huge lesson, uh, to trust and to really have gratitude for every moment of every day, which is really hard to do. But it’s not just being happy. It’s also about being sad. It’s about just allowing every emotion to come through you. Because we’re emotional beings and emotions are energy that, uh, I’m grateful that I’m feeling sad sometimes, you know, I’m grateful that I feel so happy. I’m grateful that I’m alive. In gratitude is such a powerful uh, place to be when we’re just grateful for every day. Because when we’re not here, we won’t have the chance to be grateful. We won’t have the chance to be pissed off. We won’t have a chance to be sad and depressed. So it’s just kind of like, yeah, losing, almost losing your life kind of makes you really grateful to have it. And, uh, appreciating, appreciating the journey and just trying to find love and compassion for everyone and everything. And that is more powerful than fear and hate and.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:37:18) – And I think the power that we all have is to find, um, how to be peaceful and calm with the challenges that we face.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:37:29) – Now you talk about being grateful and moving away from the hate. And I can’t help but to think about gymnastics and. How at least back in our day, how the coaching and the things that we experienced kind of played into that self-hatred, that criticism that we have of not only ourselves but other people. I mean, we were literally trained to find the flaws in ourselves and in others, and I can totally see just from experience how that can lead to us being so critical of ourselves and so unkind to ourselves, where we may be more kind to others than we are to ourselves. So this gratefulness that you’re talking about is such a powerful word, and it just kind of changes the mindset.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:38:28) – It really does. I’m grateful for all the lessons I was able to learn from gymnastics. Of course, it was a long journey to learn them, but I also feel gymnastics set me up for going through cancer because it was almost like a bit of training for the Olympics.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:38:45) – I was training for my life and I had this, like passion, you know, to live. And I probably got a lot of that strength and discipline just from being a gymnast. And you never know, like, if I wasn’t a gymnast, you know, I was growing up in New York City, like I was a social kid. I could have gotten in a weird crowd, been in an accident. Who knows what would have happened, you know? So it’s kind of like you trust that everything you have experienced, the bad stuff is what gives you your superpower. And when you transmute. You know what I mean? And the resilience and like, I’m so now sensitive to like, people that, you know, are depressed or self-hating or feel unworthy because, you know, there’s a lot that you can help other people just understanding because you went through it.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:39:46) Exactly.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:39:49) – I know there’s so many life lessons from our sport, period. And there’s some challenges, you know, that we have to overcome.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:39:55) – But I know in my life I think the good far outweighs the bad. Yeah. What advice would you give to the man or woman who is listening to your story right now and they’ve received a diagnosis that is scary, is, um, could be life threatening. What do you tell them?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:40:21) – I tell them I’m sorry. You know, I’m compassionate. I it’s okay to be afraid. It’s so crazy to hear that. But see how this can be of service to you. Find the doctors and the team of doctors that you really trust. Don’t go just with one person that wants to take you on. It’s so important to do a couple opinions and just see who you feel comfortable with. Um. Look at cancer or a diagnosis as something that is asking you for your attention to heal something. And so. Maybe you don’t know what that is right away. There are so many different healing modalities. There’s so many like ways of healing energy also with acupuncture and with Reiki and with meditation and really try to just go deep, deep into yourself and your cells and your being and ask, why is this here? What does it need? How can I see it, feel it, understand it, and then heal it and, and just sort of try to embrace the journey and love the journey and love the, the process because it’s all supposed to help, help you evolve.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:41:47) – And it might be, um, that you need to make a major shift in your life. You know, maybe there’s something happening that is not working and you’re not taking you’re not like, making that hard decision that could uproot your entire life, your entire family. And you’re kind of like not doing it because you don’t want to hurt anybody else. So it’s just saying, this is what’s good for you, Kim. What’s good for me is what’s good for everybody. It might not always feel that way. So by you taking care of yourself, me taking care of myself, I’m not being selfish. I’m actually being able to show up in the best way so I can help everybody around me. So, so sometimes disease is just saying you are not really taking care of yourself and something needs to be taken care of. And it could be a little tweak. It could be a big thing, you never know. But for me I was like, not grateful and not loving and obviously, you know, not not worthy.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:42:57) – But now that’s a whole different story, right?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:43:02) – So different now. So different. Yeah.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:43:05) – To the caregiver.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:43:07) – What is your best piece of advice? Because as I read your back and forth with Larry in the book, it was just this beautiful dance. It was hard. It was complicated but it was beautiful all at the same time. And the end results, I mean, look at you. You’re here, you’re together. And I can imagine cancer takes a really big toll on life itself, but also a marriage.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:43:39) – The caregiver has a tough job because it’s all about the patient. And as a caregiver if if the relationship is strong and. Everybody you know is in it for all the right reasons. The caregiver really just has to show up and and see what is needed at every day. You know, and it’s important for the caregiver to have a way to let off steam, and maybe have a person or a group of friends that they can talk to. You know, they’re allowed to to mope and be upset.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:44:19) – They don’t have to be happy all the time. But maybe not not allow that unhappiness to be like part of the when they show up for the patient. Um, but it’s okay to not be happy about the situation. You know, when somebody gets diagnosed with cancer. One person has the cancer and the other person also has the cancer, just not physically. So just to understand, it’s a chapter. Cancer is a chapter. It’s not your entire life and there is an end like there’s an end to everything. So just try to show up in the best way. And when you don’t show up in the best way, that’s okay too. Uh, but, you know, it’s just really taking it day by day.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:45:08) – Great advice. Now, as a result of your cancer, you founded zero negative. What is zero negative all about and how are you helping people?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:45:18) – Zero negative was named zero negative because my cancer was called triple negative cancer and triple negative sounds just like a death sentence. And I sort of wanted to figure out like, what’s the opposite of triple negative? Uh, zero negative.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:45:33) – Zero negative means there’s no negative. It’s only positive. So, uh, what I learned most through my journey was all about the power of love, the power of gratitude, the power of trust. And. Surrendering and acceptance. And so the first part of Zero Negative was spreading love through accessories that give back to cancer research at UCLA. That was my way of showing gratitude to all my doctors and my team, and really wanting to be part of the team that is helping to find a cure. As I went through chemo I used the Love totes, the first signature bag from Zero Negative as a chemo bag, and it was, you know, it served so many great things. I mean, first it’s a great bag and it fills you can fill it with everything. Uh, the the it says love to always just remind us that love is a choice and that we are always surrounded by love and to know that. So it’s kind of serves as a reminder and also just, um.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:46:44) – Just to know love is always a choice. And then we designed a couple different type of accessories and thinking. Giving back to cancer research was the main objective. But now partly it gives me a way of just sharing my story and sharing that it’s not just about the doctors and cancer medicine and chemo, it’s about the patient showing up as also part of the healing process. So it’s kind of like a team. The doctors and the patient are a team, and we’re all together teaming up and trying to heal cancer. And, uh, we have just as much power as our doctors do. And that’s why it’s so important to pick the right team, because we’re all supposed to be on the same side. And but yeah. So zero negative, um, is exciting because I love also being able to share the message and also help everybody who’s going through any kind of challenge. It’s not really just cancer. Cancer was my challenge. um, but, you know, you’ve had your challenges and they’ve probably made you who you are and you probably have learned so much through every challenge.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:48:01) – So it’s really just about how to embrace your challenge and, and understand that this is a challenge that’s serving you and not destroying you in away.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:48:11) – Powerful. I mean, there’s the whole conversation, your words, your attitude, the way you’ve handled everything. I mean, the biggest word. And I’ve used it several times in this interview that I can think of. The best word I should say is powerful. Jen, you have a powerful story. You’re doing amazing things. And how can we find out more about what you’re doing so that we can participate in you helping UCLA to raise funds for research and encouraging other people?
Jennifer Greenhut (00:48:42) – So zero negative. The website is shopzeronegative.com and all of the products that are on the site right now, we all give back to UCLA’s Johnson Cancer Center Foundation. And I’m in the process of making a lot more new things. So this year is going to be really fun. And um, the book that I wrote with my husband called Everyone Needs a Larry, and it’s available on Amazon.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:49:09) – And it’s our story, sharing two sides, perspectives of the patient and the caregiver. And it’s all just to help inspire other couples navigate their own cancer journeys. And we also give advice and tips and sort of like, what do you bring for surgery? What do you bring for chemo and what to expect? And it’s really like a personal story, but hopefully also helping other people. And you know, the main thing is just knowing, like you don’t have to hate cancer. You can actually choose to embrace it as some other thing. And and I hate saying love cancer because everyone’s like, oh, you know, I don’t want to love cancer, but I promise, like, if you love and you see cancer as like just a kid, that’s like not acting the way that they should, you know, you still love your kid. You know, it’s your kid. They’re just having a hard time. They’re struggling right now. So just sort of love, love, love your challenge and your challenge.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:50:06) – Challenge will love you back is what I like to say.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:50:08) – Okay. I like the way you put that. Love your challenge and your challenge will love you back. Mm hmm. That’s something to think about. Well, Jen, I’m going to close up our interview with a question that I want to ask each person that I interview. So first I want to describe to you what my definition of BrillianceMode is. And basically, I believe it’s when a person is able to live and act and play in the fullness of who they were designed to be, and they’re able to give all that they have to offer. So they’re utilizing their greatest gifts, their talents, personalities, everything that makes them, them. It makes them who they are. So my question to you is, what does BrillianceMode look like for you.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:50:55) – To show up in love and light and. Teach people that they are love and light and that we’re all part of the same family. And we’re all here to help each other. All here for a reason.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:51:10) – We all have a purpose. And. Uh. Just to trust. To trust their brilliance. To trust their light. Because everyone has it.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:51:25) – Thank you Jen. It has been a pleasure talking about your story. Just hearing your journey. That’s incredible. And I’m so happy to know that you didn’t just stop with the healing of your own cancer, but you’re working to help heal others, to support others, to encourage others who are going through similar circumstances. So thank you for taking the time to talk with me.
Jennifer Greenhut (00:51:50) – Thank you for inviting me. I’m so happy that we did this. And yeah, I think that’s why I didn’t have kids. Because
Jennifer Greenhut (00:51:59) – Humanity is my children now.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:52:07) – I started this interview with the intention of focusing on Jen’s cancer journey, but the conversation became so much more, and this may seem like a small part of what she said, but it really struck me she touched on an important challenge that some athletes have that carries over into adulthood and may lead to some unhealthy lifestyles and unwise choices.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:52:31) – She brought attention to the fact that, as a gymnast, it is not uncommon for us to be conditioned to give our power to other people. We have a tendency to live our lives for our coaches or our team or even the judges, and sometimes we find ourselves feeling like we’re less worthy or a less valuable part of the picture. Of course, this is not how it goes for all gymnasts, but unfortunately for some of us. This is truly the case. But forget gymnastics, those in other sports, or those who may not even be an athlete at all. Sometimes they have experiences and circumstances in life that leave them feeling the exact same way. Maybe some of us are more susceptible to it than others. I don’t know, but I do know that some of us are still struggling to try to overcome those false beliefs, because we’re finding that we’re having a difficult time thriving in life and being fulfilled, and we continue to find ourselves on this people pleasing cycle. And we’re critical of ourselves, and we may even be critical of others.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:53:53) – Now, don’t get me wrong, I. I don’t say this in judgment. I say this from experience. I’ve been on that cycle, that people pleasing cycle, and it is not a happy place to be. If you or someone you know is dealing with something similar, what can you take away from Jen’s story that might provide some encouragement? When it came to discussing Jin’s cancer journey. It ended up not being about the struggle and the pain. But it was all about a change in perspective. The healing of the mind as well as the body. And she also emphasized the power that gratefulness played in her overcoming her challenges. No, Jen was not able to achieve her goal of making the Olympic team, but her gymnastics training helped her to achieve a far greater goal than that. The goal to live. It prepared her for the fight of her life, and the fight of her life is what it took to shift her mindset from that of self-hatred that she had experienced for so long to one a beautiful one. If self-love.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:55:28) – Self-love that overflows in her life to such a degree that she can’t help but to pour it into the lives of others. Helping them. To be encouraged. Helping them to have hope. The hope that they need for their journey. After talking with Jennifer Greenhut Tollin. I will never look at cancer the same way again.
Kim Hamilton Anthony (00:56:10) Thanks for listening. If you want to find out more about Jennifer Greenhut Tollin and her book, Everyone Needs a Larry. Check out our show Notes on InBrillianceMode.com/podcast. And to connect with Bruin Gymnastics alumni on Instagram. Follow us @UCLAGymAlumni.
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